Tech Refactored

Ep. 28 - What If... with Mike Tobias

July 14, 2021 Nebraska Governance and Technology Center Season 1 Episode 28
Tech Refactored
Ep. 28 - What If... with Mike Tobias
Show Notes Transcript

We're joined by Mike Tobias, host of the What If? series from Nebraska Public Media. Mike shares what's it like to seek, find, and explore the interesting characters and topics around Nebraska, and how to best tell their stories.

Check out his show at https://nebraskapublicmedia.org/en/series-media/what-if-video/

Disclaimer: This transcript is auto-generated and has not been thoroughly reviewed for completeness or accuracy.

Gus Herwitz: 0:00

This is Tech Refactored. I'm your host, Gus Hurwitz, the Menard director of the Nebraska governance and technology center at the university of Nebraska. We're joined today by Mike Tobias, host and producer of the, what if web series from Nebraska public means. What if is an exploration of innovation, creativity, invention, and discovery telling stories about interesting Nebraskans with interesting ideas in a wide range of areas like university research, entrepreneurship, education, economic development, and more professionally Mike has spent more than 20 years in Nebraska, public media, formerly known as NTT. During that time, Mike has worked as a senior producer and reporter covering diverse topics from politics to history to sports. He has produced content for television, radio, web, and social media with a constant eye towards changing methods, tools, and styles, all in pursuit of telling a great, yeah. Mike, welcome to Tech Refactored.

Mike Tobias: 0:54

Thanks for having me.

Gus Herwitz: 0:56

So, uh, we gave a short explanation of what it is in the, uh, uh, intro segment. But if you were to characterize a, what if in terms of subject matter style format, your goals with it, how would you do so?

Mike Tobias: 1:11

actually exactly what you did. You, you stole everything that I have to share it's it really is truly, it is a series about innovation, creativity in Nebraska, totally Nebraska focused. , and so it's a TV show at the, at a starting point. We've created six episodes, but the stories go online. We distribute them through social media. We do radio it's about. All things. It's it's science, it's entrepreneurship, it's education, the arts, economic development. It's interesting people taking interesting approaches to a wide range of different things.

Gus Herwitz: 1:45

And it's based in Nebraska, Nebraska public media is obviously Nebraska public media. Are there any interesting or particular reasons that you think Nebraska provides a interesting setting for this discussion?

Mike Tobias: 2:00

The starting point is it's our focus. We do a lot of local content here in this from the very beginning was meant to be a locally focused show about innovation and creativity. That said there is just no shortage of interesting stories about Nebraskans that are taking different approaches to different things, whether it's, uh, in order a fascinating leadership development program, that's helping start new businesses in the community to how a young entrepreneur that is creating Fitbits for cattle to monitor cattle health, to an experimental computer music component. In Omaha, who who's doing some really fascinating things. Uh, uh, somebody who's producing shrimp in Southeast Nebraska, uh, research, this fascinating storm research project that is just traipsing all through the Midwest. That's based at the university of Nebraska Lincoln. I mean, the story ideas are in there.

Gus Herwitz: 2:59

Okay. And, uh, Nebraska public media, Nebraska focus, the audience, uh, traditionally has been Nebraska, but this is a large online and social media component as well. Has that changed how you think about the audience either as you're developing this or almost accidentally, has your audience changed? Have you seen different people consuming this.

Mike Tobias: 3:19

okay. Well, it definitely, we have to think differently about it. Uh I'm again, our primary audience is Nebraska, but knowing that we have the ability to run. Such a broader audience through again, social media and web and other distribution. , you know, we do think about how we can put the stories out there for a bigger audience and some different things that we need to do in terms of, simply what do we start? The, what image starts, the web version or the social media version of the story, knowing that somebody may not stick with it as long. So it doesn't influence our story ideas, but it does influence our, some of our districts.

Gus Herwitz: 3:57

So you characterize what if, as an exploration of innovation? Innovation is right there. I one, the first couple of words and innovation is a, can be a squirrely word to understand what people mean when they use it. So from your perspective, I'm curious, how do you use the word innovation?

Mike Tobias: 4:17

I use it in a very broad way. As I look at different story ideas and different things that we're trying to focus. It doesn't have to be the only person or the first person ever doing anything. , it's somebody taking a different approach again, from a Nebraska perspective and thinking differently. I'm really interested in how entrepreneurs and innovators and creative people think and what the process is and how they get to where they've gotten in the thing that they've created. And yeah. That mindset, , that ability to, to take risks and to try things and understand that you're going to fail. And what do you learn from failure in that journey? I think that's what I'm looking for when, and that's in a sense how I kind of think of innovation,

Gus Herwitz: 5:06

And when you're thinking about specific topics or individuals you might speak with, are there specific things that you're looking for?

Mike Tobias: 5:14

you know, and, and that comes from, I guess, doing this as long as I have. When you see a good subject or a good story idea that the light just goes off sometimes. Um, and that to me is the starting point is I've heard about something is my first reaction. Wow. That's interesting. Or wow, that person's fascinating. Uh, when you talk to them and you learn about what they're doing and in a way that's sort of the, the very simple starting point

Gus Herwitz: 5:42

And how often is it what they're doing versus who they are? Are innovators different people?

Mike Tobias: 5:50

Oh, definitely. Definitely. And I think, , that's a really good question. I don't know that I can quantify it, but again, sometimes you just, you talk to somebody, um, and you just realize this thing that they're doing a good example. There's a couple of young farmers up in the Alvin area, Matt and Joe Ruger. , there are a couple of guys that were initially going to go play college football at a smaller college. They connected with the angler ag entrepreneurship program at UNL L just on a tour and thought, this is what we want to be doing. , they always knew they wanted to go back and farm, but they wanted to go back and do it their way, which is really hard thing. For a 23 year old to be able to do. It's just a lot of times you go back to the family operation, you just kind of do what you've been doing. They wanted from the very beginning to go back and do it their way. , and so they have this really interesting operation that's in partnership with their family operation where yeah, they're growing corn, but they're also using that, , as part of their whiskey operation. And they had some acres that they, a little bit of land that they didn't have anything to do. And they thought, you know what? We could do hops because we have a partnership with a local brewery. They sell their meat, , direct to consumer. , they've got, uh, they're in a store here in Lincoln, the, from Nebraska shop. , and again, they're not the only ones selling meat direct to consumer raising corn, doing hops, even doing whiskey at this point, but the mindset of them wanting to create. This life and this world that, that they were in control of as 20 year olds was one of the things that was really attractive about me. And there.

Gus Herwitz: 7:33

So I just want to highlight something. I find fascinating there. , everyone's familiar with, , The phrase necessity is the mother of innovation of invention. And a lot of folks think innovation. These are problem solvers. These people, , innovators tend to confront some issue and they come up with a way to solve and address it. And that's a huge part of what innovation is about. But I think you just told a different sort of story. You told a story of operations. , these brothers, they had field space, they had, , creativity, they saw opportunities where they could do stuff in new, , do new stuff and experiment and try it. And that's a very different sort of innovation, but it's equally important as a form of innovation. So I unpacking those two different strains of, the innovative, the drive to innovation, uh, is, uh, I think a worthwhile thing to highlight and underline; a lot of people naturally, when they're talking about innovation, entrepreneurship business, they tend to have a coastal focus. They tend to focus a California Silicon valley or DC and New York. These are, this is where innovation is driven. And I, I wonder if you see things differently from the, perspective of someone talking to innovators here in Nebraska.

Mike Tobias: 8:47

I think what I see is people who don't necessarily believe you have to be on a coast to make something happen. A really good example of that is Nick Sergio. He created the, biomechanics program at UNO. , there may be nothing like that. There probably isn't anything like that in the United States. Maybe not even at the level of what they're doing in the world. They are pushing. What can happen with biomechanics research, which is essentially the, the science of movement in so many different directions with this huge multi-dimensional research facility. And it's really, a lot of it is, is Nick Sturge Joe's mindset that why can't campus be at UNO? This doesn't have to be in California. It doesn't have to. In Germany or any place else? It can be here. There's no reason it can't be here. Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of these, that's what a lot of the folks that I talked to are thinking, there's no reason that that kind of thing can't exist here.

Gus Herwitz: 9:51

Do you have any sense? I know you study and focus on Nebraska and not, , the innovation happening elsewhere. so this might not be a fair question, but do you have a sense of, , Differences between the innovation or the innovators who are doing this sort of work here. in Nebraska, or decide to do this or work here instead of doing it in places that, , folks might more traditionally think of as innovation.

Mike Tobias: 10:17

No, I don't know that I do. The one thing, because I, I really don't talk to a lot of, I don't do stories on people outside of the state, so I don't have that same perspective. You know, the one thing that I do hear Nebraska innovators talk about, especially entrepreneur. Is is funding that there is a, there is more of a challenge funding here than there is maybe in, in other parts of the country that said there's some people creating some interesting funding opportunities here in the state that I, again, don't believe, , existed maybe, , in the last decade or so. , Erica was a singer. Uh, was formerly the chief founded the co founded the startup collaborative with the Omaha chamber of commerce. And she's in one of our educational, , segments. , she's left and is created a venture capital company. That is, I think providing some seed money. I don't know a ton about it. Uh, and I think there's others doing that same thing. So I think there's people looking to overcome that challenge, but again, you know, there are some challenges based on population and location.

Gus Herwitz: 11:22

And you're touching on, another side of the innovation coin innovation and entrepreneurship are often viewed as going hand in hand, uh, in your experience, talking to innovators, are they necessarily the entrepreneurs or are these. , different skill sets. Is there a distinct type of person that's the innovator slash entrepreneur, as opposed To the innovator or.

Mike Tobias: 11:47

To me, they go hand in hand. , but maybe that's possibly the people that we've talked to. , because I think even in, for instance, you know, some of the science and research stories that, that we've done. There's also an entrepreneurial element to that. , and so I really do sort of see these things hand in hand. I think maybe not every, I think that's a really good question. I'm not sure that every innovator is an entrepreneur, but maybe every entrepreneurs in the innovation.

Gus Herwitz: 12:22

I it's, um,

Mike Tobias: 12:23

that's a tough question.

Gus Hurwitz: 12:25

I know it's a hard question, which is why I asked it and I, you, you touch on the funding environment and the startup environment, here in Nebraska in particular. And I think you're absolutely Right. That's something that's been changing and growing, and there are more opportunities here, , in recent years. Uh, last decade or so, and that, that's one of the things that creates opportunities for innovation innovators go where they'll have opportunities to do things with what they build. And also there's a selection bias. The things that we see and learn about and discover, and are fascinated by, they tend to be the things not only that are successfully innovative. Invented, but that get to the market and change the world and have impacts that we can all see and feel. I guess the last question before we take a brief break, , you've been, , working, uh, in this area, for 20 years or, working with Nebraska public media for 20 years. But the, what if a show is newer, I wonder. Are there any trends that you're seeing any emerging fields or sorts of innovation, uh, that you think would be worth highlighting or interesting to folks?

Mike Tobias: 13:35

No, I think in terms of, we, we see a lot, there's a lot of tech innovation going on. You know, I don't know that, uh, when you look at, , what a huddle or, , open doors, you know, some of those companies in Lincoln, for instance, would, would those have been able to happen in Nebraska? You know, 10 years ago or a little bit earlier, , we're seeing a lot of this, this sort of tech growth, especially in Omaha and Lincoln, obviously there's a lot of ag innovation. there's a lot of ag tech innovation, but some of it isn't necessarily tech driven. When you look at, uh, the farmer we talked to down in Diller that had, , empty pod facilities and decided to start raising shrimp. Different mindsets like that. I see so much happening around the state. That is just it's so wide and varied.

Gus Herwitz: 14:23

We are speaking with Mike Tobias, the host and producer of Nebraska public media is what if program? We will be back to hear more from him in a couple of months. And we're back with Mike Tobias. So I'd like to touch on the example that, , we left off with a farmer who realizes, Hey, I have some empty unused facilities. Let's pivot. Let's use that for a shrimp farming. Yeah. , where in a changing economy, , agriculture is dramatically changing in many ways. , and I, I wonder if you have thoughts on how that's changing the shape and nature of innovation, either that we need to be doing or that you're seeing on the ground, as you talk to folks.

Mike Tobias: 15:07

Well, I think that the shrimp farming story is a really good example of that. And diversity I diversity is not a new concept in agriculture. The agricultural world has been talking about the need to diversify , for a long time. But again, when you look at, , Scott presser, , the farmer with rock Creek aquaculture dinner on Diller, seeing an article. Realizing he had the space and saying, okay, this is a, this is something we can try. , it works financially to give it a shot. You know, I think the example I gave you earlier, but, uh, the Bruger brothers up in Alvin, same thing, they realized you just can't, you can do traditional agriculture, but you've gotta be big. That's what they had said. They didn't want to do it that way. So they needed to create the world that they wanted to be in, in, in agriculture. I'm trying to think if we've had other examples of, of that sort of thing. Those are the two primary ones that jump out, but it gets down to being diverse, trying different things.

Gus Hurwitz: 16:06

So you've been weaving in lots of examples over the course of our discussion so far, , which is it at all surprising, but I, I have to ask, do you have, uh, a favorite story, that you.

Mike Tobias: 16:19

gosh, that's unfair.

Gus Hurwitz: 16:20

Two favorite stories.

Mike Tobias:
16:22

I would say first of all, the, we did a really lengthy piece where we found. The this Taurus, uh, severe weather research project for a day, that involves it's the largest drone based severe weather research project that's ever been done. It involves tons of people it's being managed out of UNL and Adam Hughes. , just seeing how that works. And there's a bit of a, you know, there's an energy to something like that, where you're with all of these radar trucks and drones and airplanes, it's almost like being embedded with a military unit to some degree. That was fascinating. , just a, an amazing day. , but I, you know, flipping to a, to another one, , there's a guy named Maya summer in Omaha who. Grew up in south Omaha, , had a bit of a rough, rough life growing up, but he got through that, worked in business for awhile and decided he wanted to do something to give back to kids who had maybe had a similar challenge as him. So he starts this bike shop and coffee shop. That's kind of by Omaha central high school. But the whole focus of that is it's a program that helps young people who are transitioning out of foster care at that age where they're done and all of a sudden they're thrown out into the world. , so it provides jobs and life coaching and, and all kinds of opportunities and again, a fascinating person, a fascinating approach to a challenge, , and just an interesting and interesting place. , okay. I'll I'll, I'll throw one more out.

Gus Hurwitz: 17:50

Yeah.

Mike Tobias: 17:50

The, uh, the young ladies in, , Bassett that we visited that, , they had a, , gosh, I believe it was an FFA project. They had to come up with an idea. They came up with an idea, but then they decided to do it. And they started a gelato company as a school based business and selling gelato. And now they've passed the business down. As I think four of them graduated. They've passed the business down to the next generation and it's success.

Gus Herwitz: 18:17

That's- I, I love that in part. Innovation entrepreneurship. These are things that can be learned. , there are things that, once you realize, Hey, I can do this. You see opportunities and you see ways to get involved, , and you can pass it on. And the way, one of the great ways of doing it. Literally by doing it. So that, that is such a great, , hub and environment for, , sparking creativity and helping to build these communities. And I, I also want to add, I highlighted two forms of, , innovation innovate necessity is the mother of invention and opportunity. , you touched on a third driver of innovation, doing well for yourself by doing good for us. That's the, uh, Adam Smithian, , idea, , there and, , finding ways to help people finding needs in your community and finding ways to fulfill them, that makes everyone better off. And it's the best way that I, my mind, at least you can be successful for yourself by helping others. , How do you find these stories? Do you just open up the newspaper? Do you see stuff while you're walking down the street? Do you have a production team who goes out and researches them for you or do they just come to you?

Mike Tobias: 19:29

The production team that goes out and does the research is me. Um, so, you know, it's, it's networking, it's it really comes down to networking. , I've been doing this for again, you know, a couple of decades. It's you, you talk to people, you sometimes you see things, people send me ideas. , but I, I networked through all sorts of different, , people that are doing community development and business development and, you know, nonprofits and. Anyone. I, I have a list of stories it's probably 60 or 70 stories long at this point. , it's a matter of trying to figure out how, what are the best ones to do versus finding stories? Because there are so many good stories like this in Nebraska. It's just not hard to find if you create the right number.

Gus Hurwitz: 20:16

Are there challenges that you encounter in telling these stories? I know I'm a professor. I talk a lot about business and economics and that's a difficult thing to make exciting to a lot of students. Are there, , important concepts or things that you encounter that you want to explain that you just have trouble?

Mike Tobias: 20:36

We have the light industry , of being able to spend a significant amount of time on story development. So I generally talk to the subjects ahead of time. I kind of know the things that we want to focus on. I have an idea of what we want to shoot a lot of what my role as the producer is, is to get a lot of the minutia and the things in place and to have a bit of a struggle. And then I go out, then I bring in really more of the creative team, the videographers, the editors, the audio engineers, and try to set them loose, so that they can, they can play, they can try things, you know, there's, there's innovation in the way. We're doing things too. And I work with such a talented group of people that if I am not prepared enough, or I shackle them with, this is what we're going to do, and there's not going to be any, any flexibility. Then I'm wasting their abilities. And so to me, that's the biggest challenge is making sure that I've got all the stuff in place ahead of time so that we can explore, as we're telling the stories.

Gus Hurwitz: 21:44

You are an innovator and this entire project, it is something new you've been changing and adapting your use of and approach to, , media. , and th the collaborative creative process that you just described is so essential, I think, to this sort of stuff being successful. , how, how do you, what drives you to change up your formats and think about doing new things and doing these sorts of, uh, expenses.

Mike Tobias: 22:10

okay. Well, I, I think it gets down to the, that same thing of just wanting to empower talented people, to try things, to have fun. Um, and sometimes we fail, you know, take risks. They're not as, it's not a risk, like a, somebody starting up a business. , but we try things and sometimes they don't work. I think early on we had, there were times where somebody said, you know, we should put, we should try this with a small camera or whatever. And that was the first time one of our videographers, I think, said something, but why not? It's what if we can do anything, we can try anything. Right? And I think that's, uh, that was a good sort of cue and a message for us to always remember, because we do have that. We have the resources, we have the toys, , you know, we've put, we put a GoPro on a dog for a story we've used 360 cameras in really new and different ways. We've tried some different things with drones. , you know, if we're not trying to stuff and pushing the envelope and also trying to create a show, that's fun. That's very host involved. , you see the crew you see, sometimes the crew is actually involved in the stories. You see me trying things. Sometimes you see me being goofy or silly, , all that comes into play. And that's really what we're kind of trying to accomplish.

Gus Hurwitz: 23:27

You touched on this, , right there, you're, you're an active participant in a lot of these episodes. You're there, you're having fun. You're learning things, you're doing things that's not the only. Approach that we can take in, , producing this sort of content, either lots of shows out there, how things work, , kind of shows that that are more, , sometimes steroidal documentaries, other times really exciting. Interesting. But there isn't a on-camera host who is getting their hands dirty, per se. , what, what drove for you that, stylistic decision.

Mike Tobias: 23:58

When we were at early on, when there was sort of, when I was asked to sort of pitch some different ideas and this was really a part of it from the very beginning, I think, because it wasn't. Something that we had done a lot of it would be, it would set us apart a little bit. It would set this project apart a little bit, and also thinking that, you know, a lot of what we try to accomplish in these stories is showing people how something is made or created, you know, there's, , in there's a story about a, , entrepreneur out in Benkelman that makes leg braces. And I'm there, we're walking you through the process. You see exactly how he makes a leg brace for dogs. You see how the, this thing called spider cam. That's up at this university of Nebraska research facility near me. That is this big set of cameras and you know, different other devices on a rig. You see me flying it and moving it around and stuff, but that also is it's bringing the audience in as an active participant. To, to sort of learn how the stuff works, how things are made.

Gus Hurwitz: 25:09

So I, I have to combine this question. And the previous question you said you've made a lot of mistakes and you're an active participant. , have you ever done anything really stupid or broken anything on, on set?

Mike Tobias: 25:23

Oh, let's see. I mean, if I done anything stupid, I guess that's up to the audience to figure out. But sometimes I look at things later and it's like, is this really gonna look, you know, we did a, there's an echo, there's a development project in Omaha called Highlander, which has taken an old traditional, , housing project where, where it was and they knocked it down and they're building this amazing, you know, place that has. Housing and educational opportunities and all, it's a huge campus designed to help people. Who've been living in poverty, get out of poverty. And so we on the whim, we thought, well, here's a good way to tour it. I'll hop on a scooter and ride around the thing on the scooter and just kind of point things out while we've got a camera on the scooter. , it's kind of goofy, but it's, it was a way to sort of again, take a different approach to a, , tour of, of the campus. , we haven't broken anything yet.

Gus Hurwitz: 26:16

Okay.

Mike Tobias: 26:17

I'll just leave it at that.

Gus Hurwitz: 26:20

That's one of the great things with allowed modern technology. When you're dealing with a $60,000 cameras, you can't scratch the thing. When you're dealing with a $200 GoPro, you don't want to break it, but you can take more risks than you can with, a lot of the older, larger, , equipment. What do you hope your audience gets out of, , watching this.

Mike Tobias: 26:44

I hope we show them the wide range of innovation, creativity that's happening around the state. , I hope that they kind of see how the sausage is made. They get, again, you see where the cameras are, you see what our people are doing. , I hope they learn a little something about how these people are doing the things they're doing. I mean, I hope they watch what we're doing and re and find it entertaining and sometimes funny. , and I hope they really appreciate the people we're introducing them to and how fascinating these people are.

Gus Hurwitz: 27:15

Do you ever have a audience engagement at your, have you ever walking on the street and do you have someone say, Hey, what if guy, , to you.

Mike Tobias: 27:24

Not, not, not that way. , I do occasionally run into some people. , seeing the, the shows and stuff like that. It's a different audience, I think, than you might get, if you were the anchor of a commercial TV station or something like that. , and so I don't know, you don't get a ton of that, but I do get some social media reaction and, and people that I do hear from occasionally that say, Hey, I love, love what you're doing. I thought that was great. I thought it was funny. So that's always a pretty.

Gus Hurwitz: 27:54

Any interesting episodes or projects that you have on the horizon.

Mike Tobias: 27:59

I think we're, we're hoping, , to be doing more of this, obviously, uh, we're actually in the process of doing a story for the Nova science, , program or the PBS, , science program Nova that I think will hopefully be also a, what if story about a young lady at central community college? She just graduated. Who has a fascination with mushrooms and my Caelian, which is the sort of what leads to two mushrooms growing. , she initially she built a canoe out of this stuff. It's a, it's a mycelium canoe and it, she, you can sell it, you can paddle it. , but now she's also moved on to building beef hotels out of material, because it's better for bees and we need bees to pollinate things. , and again, she is such a fascinating character and it's a good way to sort of jump into this exploration of all this stuff. People are doing with my CLM. So watch for that.

Gus Hurwitz: 28:51

And what about the future of the medium you've been working in this area? , for 20 years, you're continuing to innovate. Five years from now, is this still what this sort of content is going to look like? Are we all going to be simultaneously reading something on our phone while watching it on TV and listening to it stream directly into our brain through an Elon Musk brain implant. Okay.

Mike Tobias: 29:18

If I knew the answer to that who would know, , it it's changing so rapidly. , when I look at even going back into the eighties, I worked in commercial television for a few years at channel 10 here in Lincoln. You know, there was channel 10, everyone watched channel 10. That was it. There was, you know, you had CBS, NBC, ABC. Um, when you look at how diverse and to some degree diluted media audiences are now, um, It's hard to be as dominant as, as different entities were. And so I think what you see us doing is what a lot of folks are doing is you have to put that content where people are sure, we're still, we still have an over the air audience. We still have people watching television, but we also have a lot of people who. Watch a TV. They watch everything on a, on a device. They stream everything. So we have to have our content there. Our content has to be on YouTube. Our content has to be on social media. It has to be available wherever our audiences are. And then we have to figure out a way to make sure they know where our content is, which is a challenge. Because again, , it's everywhere. , in five years, who knows, maybe we will have that chip that we'll just play it in our brain or something.

Gus Hurwitz: 30:29

And I'll add that's actually something, I think that makes this sort of content so valuable in what you're doing so important. , it's no longer just about. Delivering content and educating and informing. It needs to be about inspiring the viewers so that they're going to be equipped and want to learn more and go out and research on their own because in this dis-aggregated, media ecosystem, the individual media consumer needs to be a much more engaged participant. And, , as the producers of content, we can inspire people to want to do that. So I think that's a commendable part of what you're.

Mike Tobias: 31:05

definitely. And I do think though, while think a lot of things are changing, I believe there's always going to be a place for good stories and good storytelling. We just may have to deliver it differently.

Gus Hurwitz: 31:16

we are coming up towards the end of our time. , anything that you'd like to touch on or that you think that I've missed?

Mike Tobias: 31:25

I don't think so. This was a fascinating process. I, I have had, again, I've been doing this stuff for a long time. This is the most fun I've had. , I think it's, I believe the people that work on it with me are having a lot of fun. It's invigorating. It's exciting. Um, you know, again, the stories are great. Check it out. I'll shameless plug Nebraska public media.org/what if, uh, is where you can find everything.

Gus Hurwitz: 31:50

I'll put in our shameless plug in a moment, I'll say, folks interested in learning more about what, , Mike and the Nebraska public media are doing. Uh, you can go to our website and there'll be some links there, uh, with, , more information and ways that you can find out what Mike's doing or for that matter. , you can probably just Google, Nebraska public media. What if, and, find it that way. Well, thank you all for joining us. Uh, I've been your host, Gus Herwitz. This has been an episode of Tech Refactored. If you want to learn more about what we're doing here at the Nebraska governance and technology center, you can go to our website at ngtc.unl.edu, or you can follow us on Twitter at UNL underscore NGTC. This podcast is part of the Menard governance and technology programming series, hosted by the Nebraska governance and technology center, the governance and technology centers, a partnership led by the Nebraska college of law in collaboration with the colleges of engineering, business and journalism and mass communications at the university of Nebraska. Colin McCarthy produced and recorded our theme music. Casey Richter provided technical assistance and advice. Elsbeth Magilton is our executive producer and Lysandra Marquez is our associate producer, our research associate and Neil Rutledge provided topic and substantive DELP development for this episode until next time, keep on asking "what if?"