On this episode we discuss a prospect that has moved from fantasy to possible feasibility - the mining and extraction of resources from asteroids and the moon. Our producer (and space lawyer) Elsbeth Magilton co-hosts and welcomes Kristi Bradford from In-Q-Tel to learn about the economic and business development side of space resources.
On this episode we discuss a prospect that has moved from fantasy to possible feasibility - the mining and extraction of resources from asteroids and the moon. Our producer (and space lawyer) Elsbeth Magilton co-hosts and welcomes Kristi Bradford from In-Q-Tel to learn about the economic and business development side of space resources.
Disclaimer: This transcript is auto-generated and has not been thoroughly reviewed for completeness or accuracy.
[00:00:00] Gus Herwitz: This is Tech Refactored. I'm your host, Gus Herwitz, the Menard Director of the Nebraska Governance and Technology Center at the University of Nebraska. Today we're going to be discussing a prospect that has moved from fantasy to feasibility in a remarkably short period. The mining and extraction of resources from asteroids in the moon.
Joining me today is co-host, is our executive director and the producer of this podcast, Elsbeth Magilton, who is also the executive director of the Space Cyber and Telecommunications Law Program here at the university.
[00:00:39] Elsbeth Magilton: Thanks Gus. Uh, I'm excited to join you on the show again for one of my favorite subjects space, uh, and space fans. Might notice that this show is coming out on July 20th, which is the 52nd, I believe, anniversary of the moon landing. So some extra special meaning to this episode today as we talk about space. As you mentioned, a lot of my work focuses on the [00:01:00] legal aspects of mining and space, and for those who were really interested in the highly legal and regulatory functions, um, of how we're thinking about space. I'd also encourage you to check out one of our previous episodes that our student fellows ran on the Artemis Accords, but rather than delving too heavy into the laws around space mining. Today's guests here to talk a little bit more about the technical, economic and political challenges and potential benefits of extraction of resources from the moon in near earth Asteroids.
I am so excited to welcome Kristi Bradford, a senior technology architect at Intel, which is a nonprofit venture capital firm, which invests in high tech startup companies. Welcome Kristi
[00:01:39] Kristi Bradford: Thanks for having me.
[00:01:41] Elsbeth Magilton: Well, it's wonderful to have you here and to catch up on all of your work and, uh, what you're doing right now.
[00:01:46] Gus Herwitz: So, I first, I, I promise I'm going to avoid as many space related puns as I can, but I have to start with one to start us off. Kristi, could you tell us a little bit about, uh, just your background and what pulled you into the [00:02:00] orbit of this?
[00:02:02] Kristi Bradford: Um, happy to do so. For me, I started out my career very much on a, uh, traditional academic path.
So I was pursuing a PhD focused on the interface of science and engineering and specifically developing instrumentation. For space exploration. This was around sort of 20 13, 20 14, and as I was in this PhD program, I was also observing what was happening in commercial space, and I saw that there was a lot of new opportunities coming up on the, in the commercial sector.
And, uh, it, it started to intrigue me and, uh, at the same time I was starting to become a little bit disillusioned with academia. And so I decided to make the, the jump to the commercial side and given my background in the development of sensors for science, uh, Planetary resources happened to be a really good fit because I was able to bring a, a skill set that they needed for being able [00:03:00] to understand asteroids in order to pursue their plans for, for asteroid mining.
Um, and so I ended up quitting my PhD and joining the company Planetary Resources, uh, where I worked for a about three years while I was at Planetary Resources. A firm called Intel, which is where I work now, was evaluating planetary resources for investment and. After I left Planetary Resources, I ultimately ended up at Inq Tell, though I did have a brief, uh, stop at the Aerospace Corporation on my way there, but when I joined Inq Tell, I saw that they had already done a ton of really impressive investment in space.
And so when I joined, I asked two questions of Inq tell's space investment strategy, what was missing and what's next, and what came out of the analysis from that was what I term space auxiliary services, which is the, uh, space, market segments that become more [00:04:00] important and start to open up the more satellites you have on.
And so there's four pillars of space, auxiliary services, space, traffic management, satellite servicing in space, data handling and space resources and in space manufacturing. And so, I have been very much focused on those four areas in my time at Intel, and I will say the space resources pillar is one that is near and dear to my heart, given my time to planetary resources, but it's also the one that is probably furthest out in terms of when I see, um, Investment in that area, gaining steam.
Um, and I would say gaining steam again, given that obviously you had companies like planetary resources and use space industry that were able to attract venture capital investment several years ago.
[00:04:52] Elsbeth Magilton: Thank you so much for- that is wonderful context. And for listeners who maybe are not familiar with planetary resources, they were, and correct [00:05:00] me, Kristi, if I phrase this badly, but a startup company that was working towards asteroid mining specifically and really led, I think at the time, a lot of the policy changes we saw in DC and thinking about how we regulate asteroid mining and how all of that works and was a true leader and sort of, I think making that an idea.
People could wrap their heads around and seeing it kind of in a new.
[00:05:24] Kristi Bradford: I think that's a great summary and, and I would also add to that is, uh, well, planetary resources had a very big impact on the policy and, and legal side of space resources. I also come across folks younger than me all the time who were inspired by planetary resources and went into space because of it.
And so even though the company's not around anymore, it does have, uh, uh, a legacy that I think is influencing, uh, the future of space in general and the future of space resource.
[00:05:53] Elsbeth Magilton: Absolutely. So turning to space resources, right, there are several potential resources or reasons [00:06:00] for mining or resource extraction in space.
So for the first part of this conversation, I kind of wanna focus on the possibility of mining for rare earth metals. Um, and some people are a question that I ask. Here is, why is that necessary? Why should we do that? Why can't we do it here on earth? What are your thoughts and responses to, to that question of, of why do we want to look for these sorts of minerals and metals in space?
[00:06:22] Kristi Bradford: I find the, uh, the interest in where earth mineral mining and space to be a little bit perplexing myself. Uh, and the reason I would say that is that will I, I, you know, see the sort of storyline of that's what's gonna create the first trillionaires in space. I guess I look at it a little bit more pragmatically.
If we look at history on Earth, there's a reason the Stone Age came before the Bronze Age, which came before the Iron Age, and I see where earth mineral mining to be Something that's not, not the, the low hanging [00:07:00] fruit of the space resources world. Now, I would probably say, I'm not sure anything is a little hanging fruit when it comes to space resources.
But if I were to think about what do you go after first where Earth Materials is, is not what comes to mind. And so while I think it, you know, we can have many conversations speculating on that aspect of space resources, I think there's much nearer term targets, whether it's water or you know, even industrial materials.
And part of the reason for that is that. You have to think about it from the perspective of, you know, if we go back to the analogy of the Stone Age, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age is the reason things developed the way they did was based on what were the needs at the time and really what was the easiest way to achieve those needs, and so, That's why Stone Tools came before Iron Tools is because it solved the need in the most cost effective way possible at the time.[00:08:00]
And so I think when we think about space resources, we need to keep that in mind of not just thinking about the, the technology side of it and you know, just because it might be possible to go. Rare earth materials doesn't mean that it's going to happen in the near future when you take a whole holistic look at, um, not just the technological constraints, but the economic constraints, the scientific constraints, and the political constraints.
[00:08:27] Gus Herwitz: So I want to, uh, ask you about the barriers to, uh, engaging in this sort of mining. But, uh, I want to, uh, uh, follow up on, uh, that, uh, last comment first. In terms of incentives and what's driving people to reach out and explore and try and get, engage in these activities and develop the technologies. Do you think I, I'll just, uh, uh, pick on Jeff Bezos, uh, today.
Do you think that, that Jeff Bezos is motivated by mining asteroids for gold or is water-
[00:08:59] Kristi Bradford: [00:09:00] I, I mean, I'm not gonna speak for Jeff Bezos. Uh, what I would say is that I think that there is a group of individuals, high net worth individuals who have a passion for space, and they want to see the reality of space settlements.
And they want to see humanity move beyond earth, and maybe I shouldn't say move beyond earth, expand humanity, uh, beyond. One of the key aspects of sustainably expanding into the solar system is that it has to be economically sustainable. And so the moment that you bring economic constraints into it, It's not a matter of choosing which one you're gonna mine.
Chances are you're gonna mine both at some point. It's a matter of what makes sense economically to do first. And so I think [00:10:00] that when it comes to. Water. It's just going to be easier to mine in space than, uh, you know, precious metals. Okay. And
[00:10:10] Gus Herwitz: what, what's keeping us from doing this? We've, we've made it to the moon. We've been, uh, to the moon for 50 plus years at this point as, uh, Elsbeth mentioned. Why can't we just fly, uh, a ship up there and start loading it up with, uh, these resources and bringing them home? What are the barriers to entry to, uh, engaging in this activity? Yeah,
[00:10:30] Kristi Bradford: great question. I would, uh, go back to, to economics and I would break it down into the problems on the supply side and the problems on the demand side.
So if we start on the supply side first, we can break it up into the scientific challenges and the technological challenges. So on the scientific side, We're still pretty limited in our understanding of. Space resources and, and what I mean by that is, well, we do know that useful resources exist [00:11:00] out there, whether it's on the moon, uh, on asteroids or in other parts of the solar system.
But we don't really have enough information to actually develop a mining plan and develop the technology that's needed for the given or deposits that we might. And what I mean by that is that it's one thing to say, Oh, there's water on the moon. It's another thing to say, Well, is that water in the form of hydrated minerals?
Is that water in the form of water? Ice? Is that water? Uh, They're because of solar wind implantation, and thus would be very challenging to mine because it would be trace amounts dispersed across a very large area, is that water underground? All of those questions are needed in order to understand what tools you even need for being able to extract that water in a way that's cost effective.
So that's the scientific constraint on the supply. Now on the technological side, it's very much connected in [00:12:00] that you could analyze this problem purely from a technology standpoint, in which case you could basically say, Well, none of this that violates the laws of physics. And if, if space mining doesn't violate the laws of physics, it's just a matter of developing the technology.
But that's not a very interesting answer, . And because that's not the reality of how technology's developed, uh, the reality is that. Technology requires a a lot of capital up front to develop, and you also need to make sure that you're developing the right technology. So if you don't understand the science, you're not gonna know what the right technology is to develop.
And then even if you do understand the science, then you have to think about is this technology going to be cost effective enough? And it gets into aspects of the upfront cost versus the operational cost. In order to get to the point where it's primarily an operational expense. [00:13:00] There's so much technology development that's still needed.
That. I don't think it's going to be a purely commercial endeavor anytime soon. I think you have to have the government involved. I think government r and d is very, very much still necessary at this point, and it's not until government r and d retires enough risk that I think you really have a commercial company that can come in.
And take care of the remaining upfront capital expenditures before you really get into that purely operational expenditure. Now that being said, that part of the technology supply side is sort of very specific to the extraction piece of this, but you have to think about the entire value chain for space resources.
You. The mineral exploration, which is that scientific piece of you need to go out and actually understand where you wanna mine enough to make your mind plan. Then, uh, [00:14:00] after that, you then have to transport a bunch of mining equipment to your site. And I think it's important to not overlook just the cost of transportation.
And so you have the cost of just transporting all of this there. Then you have the actual excavation and uh, refinement. And that again, depends very much on specifically what you're trying to do. So for instance, if you're trying to mine water, then after you've actually extracted the water from the OR material, You still have to refine it.
And are you gonna use that water for fuel via electrolysis, or are you gonna use that as uh, drinking water for astronauts? The refinement process is gonna look very different for both of those. And so you have that piece of the value chain, then you have the, well, now you have to transport this material.
To wherever you're [00:15:00] selling it. Is the point of sale on the surface of the moon, and if it is, is it at the equator? Is it at the poles or is the point of sale at a LA garage point or is it at, you know, the future lunar gateway or is it in geo or is it in Leo or is it back on the. I will interrupt
[00:15:22] Elsbeth Magilton: Geo- geo stationary Earth orbit, LEO- Low Earth orbit for maybe our less space acquainted listeners, um, curious about those acronyms.
[00:15:32] Kristi Bradford: Thank you for that. I honestly always try and avoid using acronyms, but sometimes it's just I'm so used to it. We forget we're using them, I think. Exactly.
[00:15:42] Kristi Bradford: And so that point of sale matters a lot because it changes the cost. Uh, and so something might be financially viable if it's extracted and sold on the moon, but may not be financially viable if it needs to be transported to lower orbit to be sold.[00:16:00]
And so when you think about this entire value chain, it's a lot more complex than just developing a tool that can extract the resources. And in addition to needing technology at each point of this value chain, you also need highly efficient transportation between each part of this value chain to make sure that the full system is cost effective.
And so it's a very, very complex problem that I think often gets. Overlooked, Uh, because people tend to focus on just one aspect of it. And so that's, that's sort of the supply side of why I say economics is the constraint of, of space resources. So now, if we move to the demand side, it's a question of, well, who's gonna buy these resources?
And right now, a, a market doesn't really exist. And this goes back to the, the point of sale. Are you selling two astronauts that are living on the moon? [00:17:00] Are you selling to satellite communication operators in geosynchronous orbit? Are you selling to mega constellation operators in lower earth orbit? Are you selling to a, a government that's operating at a garage point A?
As I mentioned, point of sale is very important because it connects the, the supply and demand side. If you don't know. What your demand side is, you don't know what you need to develop on the supply side, uh, in terms of making your technology cost effective enough for what your customers are ultimately willing to pay.
And so the way that I see it is that chances are the, the first uses of space resources on that demand side is likely going to be governments. And the reason I say that is because it's likely going to be occurring. On the moon, and it's likely going to be sold to others on the moon because that, [00:18:00] uh, reduces the transportation costs, which again, should not be overlooked when you're thinking about the cost effectiveness of space resources.
[00:18:09] Elsbeth Magilton: You know, I've heard over and over again that the most expensive s. Uh, piece of any space activity is launch, right? It's be, it's licking gravity. Figuring out how to get off of earth is always the most expensive part of, of those operations. And I think that kind of speaks to that a little bit, that that transportation is a big part of the issue.
So, Thinking about the, the four pillars that you kind of said that you work on in Q l I, I'm sure you've heard from so many different companies and businesses, different ideas and processes for how to do these kind of activities and how to do extraction. Um, so my question is, what are some of the potential processes that have been proposed?
Um, and I'm sure you can't really tell us many of those. Um, but also how, how do you evaluate those and land on a process, um, whether it's in relationship to a government develop. [00:19:00] Process or whether it's entirely commercial or like you said, likely a combination of the two. How do we assess those processes?
[00:19:05] Kristi Bradford: That's a really interesting question, and what I would say is that, going back to what I mentioned earlier, is if you focus specifically on, on the extraction, I think we're too early from a commercial standpoint. Um, now I think r and d related to that from, from a government perspective, does make sense.
But you still have the challenge of do we understand the resource deposits well enough to really be diving deep on even what the right processes are. Now that being said, I think there's actually a lot of commercial activity that's happening now that can help to advance technologies that are going to be very important.
Two space resources, and those are technologies like Grande Boon proximity operations technologies like, uh, advanced sensor systems such as infrared sensors, hyperspectral sensors. As well as [00:20:00] advanced robotics and using more robotic systems in space environments. And I would say related to that is also things like edge computing.
How do we get, how do we get to the point where we're doing more computing in space to enable more autonomy in space? And I think when you start to think about space resources from the, what are some core enabling technologies, you start to realize there's actually a lot. Companies that have near term markets that are advancing those technologies.
And so when you look at things like satellite servicing, those are companies that are advancing. Proximity operations are advancing autonomy in space are advancing robotics in space, but their demand side of that supply and demand equation is much nearer term than the space resources side of things.
And so for me, it's one of those things of. Let's focus on [00:21:00] where we know there's markets and where we can advance technology that's gonna be important for space resources. So areas like, uh, satellite servicing and in space data handling, which are two of the four pillars of space auxiliary services and.
Then when the time is right, when there's more activity happening in s lunar space, when the Artemis program has reached, uh, the moon and you start to actually see demand developing, uh, that's when I see, uh, a more robust opportunity for investment in space resource.
[00:21:38] Gus Herwitz: We're talking with Kristi Bradford, uh, we're gonna take a brief break and we will be back, uh, with more discussion in a moment.
[00:21:54] Lysandra Marquez: I'm Lysandra Marquez, the associate producer of Tech Refactored. I'm so glad you're tuning in today. [00:22:00] Did you know the University of Nebraska College of Law also has a space, cyber, and telecommunications law program that started in 2008. The program features tracks for law students and advanced degrees for established attorneys interested in satellites, international law, radio spectrum, or just about anything in the great expansive space.
Check them out on Twitter at Space Cyber Law. Now back to this episode of Tech Refactored.
[00:22:30] Elsbeth Magilton: Welcome back. We are here with Kristi Bradford, uh, of In-Q-Tel, and jumping right back into space mining, what steps have already been taken towards making this a reality? Right? Are there still unknown variables that need to be resolved in order to kind of assess the viability of some of these plans and process?
[00:22:49] Kristi Bradford: That's a great question and I would say that there's interesting things happening on both the government side as well as on the commercial side. On the government side, there's been a a number of [00:23:00] government funded planetary science missions that have very much increased our understanding of the solar system.
In general, which helps us to understand what resources are out there and in what form are they taking, which is really important for developing a mining plan and informing the technology that needs to be developed for actually executing on that mining plan. And so two missions that I, I will highlight off the bat are O Cyrus Rec and High Boost Two, Both went to carbon asteroids, uh, and uh, our sample return missions as well.
And so those are very much increasing our understanding of the asteroid population. In, in particular, they were the first space missions to go to a carbonation asteroid, which is actually the sort of asteroid you would want to target if you were doing, uh, water mining from an asteroid. And so I think that there's, uh, a lot on the science side that is happening.
Improve our understanding, [00:24:00] and I would also say in the last few years, I think partially instigated by the work that Planetary Resources did is that I'm seeing a lot more peer reviewed publications related to the. The resources question of within planetary science. So it's no longer just a matter of, you know, we're characterizing these objects to better understand the formation of the solar system.
It's now not only are we doing that, but we're also looking to better understand what it would take to actually, uh, extract resources from these bodies. And so I think that's really promising of what's happening in that academic community and peer-reviewed literature community. On the commercial side, there are companies out there that are devoted to resources in some way.
I would highlight the company iSpace, uh, which is a lunar mining company headquartered in Tokyo. I met, uh, part of that team while I was working at Planetary [00:25:00] Resources and I think that they're doing some really interesting work to help advance. Space resources more generally. And then as I mentioned, uh, before the break, there is also those companies that.
Are developing core enabling technology that's gonna be really important for enabling space resources. And many of those companies do see space resources as being on their roadmap, but have very realistic timelines in terms of when that becomes part of their actual development effort. And so I think we have a really great ecosystem that is developing around space resources. But I think to the point, but I think it's gonna take a while to get to the point where it really is a commercially driven ecosystem.
[00:25:50] Gus Herwitz: So I, I, I want to pick up on something that you've mentioned a couple of times, and I, I think this is worth highlighting and focusing a little bit on [00:26:00] when we talk about asteroid mining, the thing that most people, uh, have come to mind if they're not specialists and have never thought of this before, or have never heard of Artemis and have no idea what any of this stuff is, is let's go up to space and lasso a asteroid made of platinum and bring it down to earth and will be rich. I that that's what comes to mind for most people, and that's not really what this is about, as you've made clear, and to the contrary, you've touched a couple of times on, uh, especially when we're talking about water, the use, uh, of resources that are currently in space for further in space activities. So you mentioned water can be used as water for astronauts to drink. Or we can use electrolysis in order to use it to produce fuel that we could use in space.
It sounds like the using resources extracted in space for further in space activities is the, the first step or the most likely next thing that we would do. I, Is that the case? [00:27:00] And if so, what, what does that look like? What, uh, are the, the pathways and next step, uh, towards that?
[00:27:08] Kristi Bradford: Well, before I answer that question, let me just address the lasing and asteroid comment because, funny enough, when I was at planetary resources, that question came in a ton , and the the reason I think people.
Our thinking about Astrid money in that way is that in parallel to the work that Planetary Resources was doing, NASA was working on what's called the Astrid Redirect mission. Uh, with the idea of basically going and plucking a boulder off of Astrid, bringing it into SI leaner space, and then sending astronauts to.
And so I think that why there's this idea of last swinging an Astrid and bringing it to earth is because you had people bringing those two very separate activities together in their minds. And so saw the Astrid Redirect mission [00:28:00] and the work of planetary resources as one in the same. Uh, and, uh, a good friend of mine, Paul Abel, who was the chief scientist on the Astray to Redirect mission, he and I.
Whenever we're in the same city together, we always go out for whiskey and have had many conversations about some of the challenges around getting people to, uh, understand that NASA and commercial space are separate entities, and, uh, that what what NASA might be doing with asteroids is not necessarily what commercial companies are doing.
But I think, uh, uh, it's always fun to educate the public on the nuances of space. And that's one topic where I've had gotten to do a lot of education over the years. So going back to your original question, uh, what I would say is that I think the, the, the pathway to. Space resources is to, to steal . I hate to bring up economics again, but [00:29:00] to, to steal, uh, some language from, from the economics world is that I think we need to think about it in terms of systems of innovation.
And so there's an entire literature out there on systems of innovation that talk about innovation as a non-linear process, and that you have to have a diversity of actors with a diversity of expertise coming together and learning from one another to advance a a given area. Whether it's technology or processes or, you know, even things like financial innovation and what financial instruments might be important for enabling something like space resources.
Systems of innovation are made up of government agencies, of commercial companies, investors, institutions of, of higher education, of research. I. And I think you need a combination of all of these organizations and, [00:30:00] and the individuals that make up these organizations very much working together and communicating with one, one another, focusing on the areas where each type of organization is best suited to, uh, move the ball forward.
And I think if you can create that ecosystem, which I we're already seeing signs of its creation. That's how we're going to get to two space resources is that interplay between this diversity of actors and the learning that's going to happen between those organizations. To get to the point where we can have both the supply and demand side where it's needed for space resources to become commercially viable.
[00:30:46] Gus Herwitz: I'll quickly say never apologize for turning to economics to answer a question. I might not be speaking for anyone by myself when I say that, but that's my own view.
[00:30:57] Elsbeth Magilton: So I'm gonna steer us- maybe there's an [00:31:00] economic answer to this that right, That we, we can stay in that, in that. But I don't think so. My white question is about two different things you've brought up, which is when we're looking at water or uses for astronauts or space tourists, as we're hearing a lot about, particularly this summer, and then also the need for any processes for extraction to be really sustainable.
So if we kind of take those, both of those ideas, what is sort of the role of extracted resources in sustainable habitation goals? If we're looking at habitation as the goal, instead of just the extraction of the resource.
[00:31:34] Kristi Bradford: I think that goes to sustainability in terms of, uh, sustainable space exploration, is that if we're going to do space exploration in a way that is, and I'm gonna bring up economics one more time.
is, uh, economically, politically, environmentally, and technologically sustainable. We have to have space resources be part of that equation. Uh, You know, people will use the [00:32:00] term live off the land, and I think that while space mining is only one piece of living off the land, I think that it is, it's an important piece of if, if space exploration remains entirely dependent on what we can manufacture on Earth, then we're gonna remain incredibly limited.
And so being able to. Extract and use resources, uh, throughout the solar system helps to make space exploration sustainable because we no longer have to bring everything with us.
[00:32:36] Gus Herwitz: So we are coming near the end of our time and, uh, I'm going to ask a, a final question to which I, I think you could probably devote, uh, a whole hour talking about just this, but, uh, are there questions or assumptions about space exploration, resource extraction, satellite and moon mining, that you wish that you'd stop hearing common [00:33:00] misconceptions out there that you'd like to take a moment to either correct or at least, uh, rant about.
[00:33:06] Kristi Bradford: Oh man, I can really ranch so we better not have me go down that path.
But what I would say is that the biggest thing is that I think people often focus on one narrow aspect of space resources. And I think we have to think really holistically about it because if we focus all of our effort on developing, you know, just the tools for extraction, and we don't think about the larger ecosystem that's needed for the economics to actually work out, then I think we're gonna put a lot of money into one thing that isn't actually gonna get us anywhere. And given that I work at a strategic investment firm right now, I think maybe the, the best way to put it is we really need to have a, a portfolio approach to thinking about space resources because.
It's a really complex area that requires us to think in [00:34:00] that portfolio approach and not just focus on one aspect of the problem.
[00:34:06] Elsbeth Magilton: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Kristi. It was wonderful to see you again and get a chance to talk about space on the podcast. And to that end, thank you Gus for having me join you again as a co-host so I could nerd out over space with Kristi, I really appreciate it. Um, and thank you for being here.
[00:34:21] Kristi Bradford: Thanks so much for having me.
[00:34:22] Gus Herwitz: And next time, uh, that you're around Elsbeth, uh, uh, the three of us can get together over some whiskey and, uh, share some good rants. Um, uh, thank you, uh, Kristi as well from me. And, uh, thank you for listeners for joining us.
Uh, I've been your host, Gus Herwitz. If you want to learn more about what we're doing here at the Nebraska Governance and Technology Center, or submit an idea for a future episode, you can go to our website at ngtc.unl.edu, or you can follow us at on Twitter at unl underscore ngtc. If you have enjoyed the show, don't forget to leave us a rating and review, uh, [00:35:00] wherever you happen to listen to your podcasts.
Our show is produced by Elsbeth Magilton and Lysandra Marquez, and Colin McCarthy created and recorded our theme music. Our research associate, Neil Rutledge provided research support for this topic. This podcast is part of the Menard Governance and Technology Program series. Until next time, it's time to blast off.