Tech Refactored

S2E22 - Revisiting Culturally Rerouting The Oregon Trail

January 05, 2022 Nebraska Governance and Technology Center Season 2 Episode 22
Tech Refactored
S2E22 - Revisiting Culturally Rerouting The Oregon Trail
Show Notes Transcript

As we plan a few forthcoming Tech Refactored projects for our listeners, we re-visit one of our favorite episodes--Culturally Rerouting the Oregon Trail. We'll be back with new episodes soon!

Original description: We're discussing the role of video games in shaping popular understandings of history - specifically the game a generation of adults played as kids, The Oregon Trail. Each of our guests, Margaret Huettl and Katrina (Katie) Phillips, drew on their expertise with Native American history and culture in consulting on the popular reboot of the game and joined us to talk about the experience. Note, William Bauer from the University of Nevada,  also advised on the reboot, but was unavailable for this podcast.

Disclaimer: This transcript is auto-generated and has not been thoroughly reviewed for completeness or accuracy.

[00:00:00] Gus Herwitz: This is Tech Refactored. I'm your host, Gus Herwitz, the Menard Director of the Nebraska Governance and Technology Center at the University of Nebraska. We're joined today by Margaret Huettl, Assistant Professor of History and Ethnic Studies at the University of Nebraska. Lincoln and Katie Phillips, Assistant Professor of History at McAllister College we're discussing the role of video games and technology in shaping popular understanding of.

Each of our guests drew on their expertise with Native American history and culture in consulting on the popular reboot of the Oregon Trail, a computer game series known from the 1995 version that appeared on the Apple two computer while the 1995 version of the Oregon Trail captured the imaginations of a generation of students.

Including myself. It was based on a narrative of westward expansion that was fundamentally inaccurate, relying on tropes of Native American culture. In rebooting the game, the developers sought to depict native [00:01:00] peoples in a historically accurate way. Our guests provided those historically valid perspectives, and in doing so, they are giving players a more comprehensive picture of the Oregon.

We'll discuss today their roles in that project, as well as their thoughts on the ways in which technology and games shape our understanding of history and culture. Margaret. Katie, welcome to Tech Refactored. 

[00:01:24] Katie Phillips: Thanks for having us.

[00:01:24] Margaret Huettl: Yes, I'm happy to be here.

[00:01:26] Gus Herwitz: So let's, uh, start with your own experiences coming into this project. What were your experiences with the earlier Oregon Trail Computer game? 

[00:01:37] Katie Phillips: So I grew up playing this game. It's one of the things I remember from, you know, the elementary school computer classes back in the day when they had to like teach us how to use computers. And it's one of the things that has always stood out to me, you know, the giant green pixels on the screen and like [00:02:00] everything that went into the game and you know, I even remember.

When we'd all get to play it in the computer lab and stuff like that, and just the conversations that people would have where it's like, Oh no, like I couldn't afford the river. And I think it's, it's just really incredible. Like what an indelible mark This game has kind of left on an entire generation.

[00:02:23] Margaret Huettl: Yeah, I can still make, uh, dying of dysentery jokes in my classes when I'm teaching and my students know what it what I'm talking about. So it's a, it's a cultural reference that spans generations too. 

[00:02:39] Gus Herwitz: Spans and defines. I, I know, uh, several people on this call. I expect, uh, Katie, uh, and Margaret YouTube might be in this cohort as well.

I'm in that generation that nowadays is sometimes referred to as the Oregon Trail Generation between, uh, Gen X and, uh, the millennials. Um, so that, that's how powerful, uh, a thing it was. And [00:03:00] Margaret, you. You just made the Dary joke. Now I'm not going to be able to, uh, bring that into discussion . Um, so, uh, you both, uh, were, uh, young members of native communities.

Um, how did that, uh, affect your individual, uh, perspectives and reactions, uh, to the game at that time? 

[00:03:23] Margaret Huettl: I don't think I noticed it as much, um, when I was in like second, third, and fourth grade playing the game. Um, you know, because there is so little native presence in the game and it's so unlike what I knew my relatives.

To be. It wasn't until I was in high school and then really in college, when I started thinking about all of the misrepresentations that I had seen, um, seen in my life building up to that point, that made me want to be a [00:04:00] historian, um, that I really. Remembered and looked back on how, uh, how bad that representation actually was, 

[00:04:12] Gus Herwitz: uh, for the benefit of people who haven't played the early version of Oregon Trail.

And it hurts me to think that there are people unfamiliar with the game, despite our conversation today about the problems with the game. Um, can you tell us, uh, how native peoples are depicted in the game? 

[00:04:30] Katie Phillips: I think the biggest. Issue with the old school original version of it is that we're really not depicted or represented at all.

I think there's maybe like one scene at one of the forts where one of your options is, you know, when you can pick the options and it's like talk to somebody. I feel like there's like one instance where that person is native. [00:05:00] And I think that erasure itself is a really big part of the game and why we were brought on to help make it a more realistic depiction.

[00:05:09] Gus Herwitz: And can you tell us a little bit about, uh, how and why you were approached by the developers of, uh, the organ trail to make a more accurate reboot of the game? Um, how, how did the developers approach you all and what did, what, uh, were they asking? 

[00:05:26] Margaret Huettl: So, I think they were aware of the problems with the original game and the criticisms of the original game, and they wanted to do a better job of including indigenous perspectives in the new version that they were making.

Um, and they, um, they wanted to not just like stick native people in the game, um, but actually have a meaningful representation of various native perspectives. And so [00:06:00] they reached out to, um, to historians like Katie and myself to get involved in, um, giving feedback and consulting on 

[00:06:08] Gus Herwitz: the. And did they have specific issues that they were interested in incorporating or did you have specific, uh, ideas that you wanted them to bring to the game?

[00:06:19] Katie Phillips: I think it was a really collaborative process. They had, they had some ideas about storylines they wanted to incorporate in characters they wanted to add, and you know, how to make native characters that you could actually. instead of having them be, you know, kind of just the, the static ones along the side.

But it was, they were really open and willing to hear what we had to say. And in a sense it was, I mean, it was honestly a lot of fun. And you know, at the same time we did have some really [00:07:00] hard conversations about, you know, the fact. Even with the addition of Native Peoples into the game, it is still a game that depicts and innocence celebrates.

American westward expansion and American westward expansion came at the expense of Native Nations. and so they were, but again, you know, they were really open and willing to hear what we had to say and we would tweak the scripts and the character descriptions and the depictions. And so it was, yeah, it was honestly a really good experience.

[00:07:38] Margaret Huettl: Yeah. And I know, um, one of the things that they wanted to do from the beginning was include some kind of acknowledgement statement at the beginning. Um, in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, land acknowledgements are really common. Um, and they wanted to do something like that at the beginning, and they had a kind of generic statement at.

Like [00:08:00] we recognize, you know, the original, um, the original inhabitants of this land and they were really open when we pushed them to have a statement that called out the impacts of colonialism and the ongoing impacts of colonialism more directly. Um, and that's the statement that ended up in the opening frame of the.

[00:08:22] Gus Herwitz: Um, are there any, uh, particular, uh, historical misconceptions in the game that you wanted to confront, uh, that are particularly memorable, uh, in your perspectives? I think one 

[00:08:35] Margaret Huettl: of the most, uh, challenging conversations that we had was actually about music. Um, and getting them to tone down the flutes, um, which is also the one where perhaps there was the greatest compromise.

Um, Katie, I know you, uh, you had a lot of, uh, you gave them a lot of good feedback after the many times they would send us tracks and we'd be like, uh, there's still [00:09:00] a lot of flute. A little less 

[00:09:01] Katie Phillips: flute. Yeah. And that's music is such. A critical part of so many of these pop culture things and one of the, one of the tracks like Margaret's talking about that we kind of went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth about, um, it kept having that, you know, new ag kind of flute thing, that it's like, you know, it's supposed to be representative of native peoples, even though it's.

Historically accurate or traditionally relevant and things like that. And you know, they kept tweaking it. They kept sending us new versions and you know, Margaret and I would just kind of be like, you know, this is, we understand, you know, that it's the background music for the game. But it was something we were both really, [00:10:00] I don't wanna say stuck on, but it was.

We had done so much work to get the game up to that point, and it just kind of felt like that part of the music was kind of pulling us back. And so yeah. The, the role of the music was a, a huge part of it. Yeah. 

[00:10:18] Gus Herwitz: So I have to ask, um, much of the work of, uh, our center is focused on technology and the, the role of technology in society.

Um, and, uh, I I'm interested in historical inaccuracies that you saw in the game, uh, in terms of the technologies that were being represented. Um, I read in an article, Instance, uh, that the developers originally had had, uh, native people using bows and arrows, when in reality they routinely used firearms.

Um, what role did technology play in native communities at that point in time? And h how should this be, uh, thought about and reflected either in the game [00:11:00] itself or in our popular understandings 

[00:11:02] Katie Phillips: technology? It's one of those things where, The stereotypical representations of native peoples are like that.

Were completely devoid of any technological advancement or enhancement. And all of these interactions with traders and the military and missionaries, native peoples were constantly adapting to the use of technology. And it was definitely a reality that by this point, You know that the, the timeframe the game is working on the 1830s, the 1840s and things like that.

I don't, I don't know if I would say firearms were ubiquitous in this moment, but like there were definitely. Around and in use. And it was really important that the game reflect that, 

[00:11:53] Margaret Huettl: you know, in 1853, you, these tribes or all native people used firearms. [00:12:00] Um, you know, it's a complex, uh, complex situation. Um, and I would also add one of the misconceptions that people have about Native Americans is that we don't have our own technologies.

And technology is not the sole purview of Euro Americans Native people developed. All sorts of sophisticated technologies. Um, and one of the ways that the game tries to kind of show some native scientific knowledge is in some of the mini games where like they're talking about, um, they're talking about paw medicine, right?

And trying to show that native people, the party and others did have this scientific knowledge, um, And they, you know, they weren't just reacting to Euro American knowledge. They were in fact, um, growing their knowledge along with Euro, Euro American's knowledge. Okay, 

[00:12:59] Gus Herwitz: we are [00:13:00] speaking with Margaret Hile from the University of Nebraska at Lincoln and Katie Phillips from McAllister College about, uh, the depictions in portrayals of, uh, native people and Native American history and popular culture, and in particularly the video game Oregon Trail.

We will be back in a moment for more with, uh, Katie and Margaret.

[00:13:24] Katie Phillips: I'm Elsbeth Magilton, the executive producer of Tech Refactor. I'm so glad you're tuning in today. You must be a very smart person interested in technology and society. Sound like you? Check out our weekly tech roundup posted to our blog, The Record every Friday. This weekly roundup highlights tech news, nationally but with a special focus on Nebraska and the Midwest. Also, we know word of mouth is critical to reaching new listeners. We hope you tell all your tech interested friends about us and encourage them to listen and check out our roundups. Now back to this episode of Tech Refactored. [00:14:00] 

[00:14:07] Gus Herwitz: And we are back talking with Margaret Huettl and Katie Phillips about the depictions of native people in Native American history and popular culture. Um, Katie, Margaret, I, uh, I have to start just by asking is there anything that the Oregon Trail did get right?

[00:14:24] Margaret Huettl: The original game?

[00:14:26] Gus Herwitz: Yeah, the, the, the original game.

[00:14:28] Katie Phillips: I'm sure it was hard to get to Oregon in the 1830s.

[00:14:33] Margaret Huettl: And there was, you know, dysentery. Well, uh, although dysentery is not very funny, uh, if you're actually experiencing it right. That's a particularly unpleasant way to die.

[00:14:45] Gus Herwitz: So you, you know, that that's a simple, but actually I think really powerful point. Um, dysentery, largely thanks to the video game.

The Oregon Trail is a punchline now. Um, and it, it goes to the [00:15:00] trivialization in many ways of, uh, uh, things that we see in popular culture and the depictions in, uh, popular culture. And I, I, I have to add, as a resident of Nebraska, Fort Carney is a real place. Uh, I think most people playing, uh, the Oregon Trail, if they made it past Fort Carney, they made it to the end.

If they didn't, that's where they ended the game. So yes. Listeners who are not familiar with Nebraska, first it's pronounced Carney, and second, it is a real place. Um, Okay. Uh, so, uh, the narrative arc and historical context, um, play a huge role in lots of video games. Um, do you have thoughts on the role that video games play in shaping our understanding of history and culture and in particular, um, the cultures with which the players likely aren't familiar and also the developers aren't familiar?

[00:15:56] Katie Phillips: You know, Margaret and I both look at pop culture. We teach [00:16:00] classes on pop culture and things like that. And I think video games as part of pop culture do play a really big role in how non historians and, and things like that kind of understand history. And you know, I just finish teaching my class on the American West and so many of my students have played like Red Dead Redemption.

You know, I, I don't think we should discount the importance of things like video games and all of the, the history that goes into it. And the main thing I think it comes down to is the question of education versus entertainment. You know, how do you make things accurate if they're not entertaining? And I think that balance is really a struggle in pop culture at large.

[00:16:48] Margaret Huettl: Yeah, and I think, um, video games and other pieces of pop culture reflect the dominant narrative sometimes as much as they shape it. So it says a lot [00:17:00] more about what people think they know, um, or how people understand. Native Americans and other people. Um, and yeah, it shows the stories that get told over and over that continue to erase native perspectives and tell a more celebratory version of the American past.

[00:17:21] Gus Herwitz: From a historical and anthropological perspective, I, I'd never thought about video games in this way, but I, I know, uh, it's a thing to study the popular fiction and stories that we have told historically to not get an accurate understanding of that period in history. But again, understanding of the understanding.

At that point in history, um, which is just a, a fascinating approach to, uh, sociological research, um, uh, in my mind, um, In my own work, I, I, I do cyber law, technology stuff. Uh, largely [00:18:00] there's been a longstanding debate about, um, violence in video games and whether violent video games have an effect of making players more violent, creating more violent human beings and individuals, or whether there's a cathartic effect, and they might actually make, uh, individuals with violent tendencies less violent.

It gives, I'm, I'm frustrated, I'm mad, I'm going to play it out in, uh, uh, Halo or Doom or whatever. Um, uh, are, are there debates like that, uh, in this setting, um, that this is escapist fiction versus this is educating and causing people to, uh, perhaps just misunderstand history or worse, actively erase parts of history?

[00:18:46] Margaret Huettl: One of the challenges is that video games like the Oregon Trail get used in classrooms as educational tools regardless of their historical [00:19:00] accuracy. Um, and. In the hands of teachers who might not have the larger context and historical knowledge, then they can reinforce, um, problematic narratives. And I think they do reinforce problematic narratives, especially in a classroom setting.

Um, But I think, you know, I use the old version of the Oregon Trail in my, uh, I teach a class on the Mythic West. And so, you know, I use it as a teaching tool, but I'm also because of my knowledge and you know, the other scholars that I've read and the documents that I show my students and that they read, Able to, I'm able to have a different conversation and to use it as a teaching tool in a different way and in a more critical and analytical way.

[00:19:51] Katie Phillips: Yeah. And I do, I, I do the same thing. I use the old version of the Oregon Trail in my class on, you [00:20:00] know, the American West, the history and the pop culture, and we are able to give our students the more. Critical analysis of it. And Margaret, I don't know about you. I still have students who have played Oregon Trail, or even if they haven't played it recently, they at least, you know, it's so embedded in pop culture that if you say we're gonna play the Oregon Trail, they know exactly what you're talking about.

And I think it is so reflective. Right of not necessarily the moment in which it was created, but in how we view American history, how we view Native History. And one of the things that we have to do as. Native, Native studies, scholars, and educators is that there are so many things we [00:21:00] have to work through and kind of push back against and recontextualize that, like Margaret said, if you're gonna use the Oregon Trail in like a fourth grade classroom or an eighth grade classroom, without that context, there's a very decent chance that it's just reinforcing the narratives that we are working so hard to- kind of- retell.

[00:21:26] Gus Herwitz: So from the perspective of, uh, any, uh, creative individual, a storyteller, a game developer, a, a show runner, um, who wants to touch on, uh, some historical or present day, uh, context that, uh, is going to involve cultures with which they're unfamiliar and I. Both particularly, uh, with, uh, Native American cultures, but also, uh, any culture, uh, with which they're unfamiliar.

Um, do you have any, uh, advice or guidance that you might offer? Uh, these would [00:22:00] be creators for how to approach these topics. 

[00:22:02] Katie Phillips: Uh, higher historians, higher native studies scholars hire the people who know and study and understand the period and the people that you wanna. So you get it right 

[00:22:16] Margaret Huettl: and don't trust Wikipedia.

Um, there's, and more generally right, information on the internet. There's so much biased information out there, um, and so many distorted versions of Native American history that, I mean, yeah, you really have to work with native historians in order to filter through all of, all of that. Um, and also, uh, think about like who.

You know, in addition to historians, who else are you working with? Um, can you work with native designers? Um, going back to the point about music, like are there native musicians that you can work with? How can you get more [00:23:00] people, I mean here specifically native people, but more generally people from the communities whose stories you're getting involved with.

Can you get them involved? In the game in respectful ways. And that of course brings up questions of profit, right? Who is profiting from these, these video games? So those, I think those are questions that. We all need to think about with our work. 

[00:23:26] Gus Herwitz: Uh, there, there's, uh, a lot of richness to those comments. Um, uh, I'd make the observation, uh, that this is how I phrase things in dynamic equilibria information.

Endogenize. What does that mean, that the Wikipedia point. Why is there so much inaccuracy in Wikipedia? Very likely, a lot of that is because of the Oregon Trail. And similar depictions caused people to have historically inaccurate understandings that they went to write up, and that became sources for Wikipedia.

Um, so, uh, uh, popular information frequently represents popular [00:24:00] inaccuracies as much as, uh, uh, historical accuracies. Um, and, and on for both of you, just on your behalf, I'll say, and if you reach out to historians and academics, Pay them. Don't expect them to do work for free. Um, because this is, this is serious work.

Um, uh, and uh, also to your point, uh, Margaret, uh, reach out to, uh, uh, Native American creators or just generally have a diverse team because that will open your eyes up to or open your work up to a wider range of eyes and perspectives. And the more perspectives see your work at the input stage, the more likely.

If there's a problem, someone's going to be able to say, Hey, wait a second. Maybe we should think about this. Let's hit pause and think about this some more. Um, uh, be beyond my overly economic, uh, dynamic in dynamic equilibria information. Endogenize, uh, uh, uh, observation. Uh, are there other consequences that these sort [00:25:00] of inaccuracies, um, can have?

One 

[00:25:04] Margaret Huettl: of the consequences with the view of Native Americans as trapped in the past, this static image of, um, of Native Americans, especially in the 19th century, is that like it limit, people sometimes don't understand that native people still exist today. Um, and there are vast disparities when it comes to health.

Um, income, uh, all sorts of, uh, all sorts of areas for native people. Um, and that is the direct result of colonial policies that started, you know, hundreds of years ago and that are carried through American expansion. And, you know, the Oregon Trail is part of this. As part of this story. So if people don't know that native people still exist, um, then it makes it hard to address those, um, the, the way that native people have been historically [00:26:00] marginalized.

Um, and, you know, there's issues today like, um, The continued taking of native lands and resources. The current fight against the Embridge pipeline in northern Wisconsin is an example of that. Um, and this, the, the, the, the kind of, I don't know, the erasure of native people from the history of American expansion just contributes to more.

Taking of land and resources. 

[00:26:30] Katie Phillips: Yeah, it's that, you know, native peoples aren't static. We're not ex extinct and we're not monolithic. And that, I think, you know, there are so many different native experiences and histories. You know, if you compare the histories of Native Nations on the East coast to the Midwest, to the West coast, to the southwest, to the southeast, to the Great Lakes, and it's.

It just feels like it is [00:27:00] such a constant battle to get people to even care about native issues because as Margaret said, if you don't think native people exist, Why should you care? 

[00:27:13] Gus Herwitz: And how do you address that in the context or think about addressing that in the context of, uh, something like the Oregon Trail where you have, uh, a finite amount of content, uh, and uh, context that you put into the game.

Do you try to make the basic point, Hey, we exist. Or do you try to make the more nuanced point, Hey, we exist and we're not actually, uh, homogeneous. We, there are several different cultures and perspectives with different, uh, cultures here. Uh, do you, uh, simplify that to make the basic point and risk, uh, taking away from the, uh, more complex point, or do you try to embed the more complex point in.

What we 

[00:27:55] Margaret Huettl: tried to do was really emphasize the diversity of [00:28:00] Native Nations and make sure, you know, one of the things we insisted on was that native characters have a specific nation and that they not be simply native. So like if, if you have a native character coming along with your wagon train, they're not just native, they're lin.

Um, there's specific pawny stories. There's, um, there will be shone stories, um, because that is such a, such an essential part of understanding Native American experiences. That is something that we as historians really emphasized, especially in the context of a game that takes place entirely in the. Right there.

So there's not as much room to do that. We're still here. 

[00:28:43] Katie Phillips: So, and that, that idea really kind of permeated everything we did. You know, it was looking at kind of the, the trail map to say, okay, this leg is going to, you know, centered these native nations, this [00:29:00] leg will center these, and so on and so forth. And it was being really deliberate with the names.

Right. And not using what you think of as the stereotypical historical native names. Right. They were names that these people would've had. They had, you know, Margaret, I think there was one point where they showed us like a potential image for one of the forts or something like that. And Margaret had this great point where she was like, Those aren't the blankets.

They would've had to have that level of attention to detail. Nobody in who plays the game is going to stop and be like, Man, I wonder if those blankets are historically accurate. But the point is they are, and it was such a little thing. But I remember Margaret when you said that, and I was just, I never, I never would've thought of it, but it's just [00:30:00] part of all of the layers and the intricacy, and I think that really exemplifies the work that went into this, that went into making it the best we could do in order to tell these stories and to actually bring this history and these people into a more important role in the game.

and I 

[00:30:21] Margaret Huettl: give credit to the Game Loft. Um, people who were very willing to having these conversations and to thinking about the 

[00:30:30] Gus Herwitz: detail. So I'm curious how, uh, your work has been received more broadly. I know I've seen some press coverage, uh, discussing, uh, uh, this work, uh, specifically and more generally, and I assume you speak about this with, uh, your students in your classes as well.

Um, what, what's, uh, the student perspective, the popular reception to your work? Been. 

[00:30:53] Margaret Huettl: People are really excited about the game. That's the first thing. . 

[00:30:58] Gus Herwitz: Um, I, I, I don't [00:31:00] think that that's, uh, you, you're, you're underselling that I think, I mean, this is such a great opportunity because this is the Oregon Trail.

This is the game that everyone knows and it, it's, it's great that they're, uh, uh, trying. Make right in terms of their depiction, um, depictions here, but also for your work and the, the broader importance of these efforts. I, I can't think of a better way to get people to say, Huh, this is something that I need to be aware of.

[00:31:30] Margaret Huettl: I know Katie and I messaged each other when we saw, uh, there was. I took a screenshot and I think she said she did too, when someone, a native person had tweeted about the opening statement and how, you know, happy they were to see that at the beginning of the game. And you know, we wrote those words together and more people will probably read those words than anything else I ever write.

[00:31:53] Katie Phillips: And that was. You know, when Margaret and I found out that we were, uh, gonna be working on [00:32:00] this, it was a lot of pressure, right? Like the, this is the Oregon trail. This is can't, like, our generation is called, like one of the names for us is the Oregon Trail Generation. And so it did feel like we had a lot writing on this.

Not just, not just as, Historians not just as you know, native women, but as kind of some of the representatives who were putting forth this new game. And to have this opportunity to have this opportunity to be a part of something like this was really incredible. And again, like Margaret said, more people are gonna read the words.

We helped edit on the front page of that, the front screen of that game than anything else we will ever publish. So it's . 

[00:32:52] Gus Herwitz: Well, j just in case, uh, I, I hope I'm not making a mistake in this assumption. I know you're both assistant professors, so just in [00:33:00] case your future tenure committees are listening, that is a serious point right there.

This is serious scholarship, serious scholarly impact. This is not just a video game. So, uh, uh, keep that in mind. Uh, tenure review. Uh, and tenure committees. Um, we're, we're in a different world of scholarship than we were 25, uh, uh, 10 years ago. Um, and stuff like this has a real scholarly and social impact.

Uh, so, uh, Katie, uh, Margaret, uh, any less, uh, uh, thoughts that, uh, either of you want to offer? 

[00:33:31] Margaret Huettl: One thing that I think is important to point out is that one game isn't going to change everything, obviously. Um, but I'm proud of the work that we did in making a game that more respectfully incorporates indigenous perspectives, um, and.

Um, you know, that hopefully my hope as a, you know, cheesy historian is that it [00:34:00] will get people talking about American history and the, you know, more complicated version, more perspectives that we can tell about 

[00:34:10] Katie Phillips: that past. Yeah. And it's, it's one of those things where the revamp of the game isn't gonna change the world.

But again, if we can just kind of. Get people talking about it and to have the chance to play the new game and to, you know, even if they're not directly engaging with it, they're still getting that information. They're still seeing more native characters, they're still seeing that. Interplay a little bit more and it's, it's a step.

And I 

[00:34:43] Margaret Huettl: think about fourth grade, me, you know, I didn't necessarily notice the lack of native representation because it's everywhere. And that's just part of being a native person, consuming pop culture. But I know that it would've meant something to me to, to be able to play a game [00:35:00] with native characters.

[00:35:03] Katie Phillips: You know, I have, I have two boys. I have. A five year old. I have an almost eight year old and a lot of the work I do, you know, with the stuff like this is about, and again, this sounds really cheesy as a historian, but about helping create a world where they see themselves reflected in a way that I did not.

And I think when they get to the point, if they're gonna play Oregon Trail in school, I don't know if that's gonna be a thing by the time they get to like those grades, but for it to just be a thing that they see. and that they, and that their classmates see, and that kids, all of the kids who play this game are gonna see, and that I think is a really 

[00:35:43] Gus Herwitz: big piece.

Well, uh, Katie, uh, and, uh, Margaret, uh, thank you both so much for, uh, this conversation. It, it's been really wonderful, uh, not just because I am a serious organ trail nerd, but I, it's just been a delightful conversation. [00:36:00] Um, and thank you, uh, everyone listening. I have been your host, Gus Herwitz. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Tech Refactor.

If you want to learn more about what we're doing here at the Nebraska Governance and Technology Center, you can go to our website at ngtc.unl.edu, or you can follow us on Twitter at UNL underscore NGTC. This podcast is part of the Menard Governance and Technology Programming Series hosted by the Nebraska Governance and Technology Center.

The Nebraska Governance and Technology Center is a partnership led by the Nebraska College of Law in collaboration with the Colleges of Engineering Business and journalism, Mass Communications at the University of Nebraska. Colin McCarthy produced and recorded our theme music. Casey Richter provided technical assistance and device.

Elsbeth Magilton is our executive producer, and Lysandra Marquez is our associate producer, our research associate, Neil Rutledge provided topic... [indestinguishable] until next time [indestinguishable].